12:58 p.m.
Hi,
Mark Wielaard <mark(a)klomp.org> skribis:
On Mon, 2021-04-12 at 10:18 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> I’ve added you to the list of endorsers:
>
> https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract-endorsement
>
> It seems we’re missing some of the newcomers though; Mark?
That webpage was part of the bootstrapping effort for the GNU Social
Contract which ended last year February (see the Timeline section on
that page).
Ah.
Originally for bootstrapping reasons that was just for GNU
maintainers
as that term was defined in old GNU. I think if we want a "people" page
on the new website we could add people there if they want, but I think
it doesn't have to be very formal as long as it is clear that
participation in the GNU Assembly is under the assumption that all
participants endorse the goals of the GNU Social Contract.
Still, I think it would make sense to keep a public list of
participants/endorsers for transparency and also as an introduction.
WDYT?
Ludo’.
1:39 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Am Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:58:32PM +0200 schrieb Ludovic Courtès:
> Originally for bootstrapping reasons that was just for GNU
maintainers
> as that term was defined in old GNU. I think if we want a "people" page
> on the new website we could add people there if they want, but I think
> it doesn't have to be very formal as long as it is clear that
> participation in the GNU Assembly is under the assumption that all
> participants endorse the goals of the GNU Social Contract.
Still, I think it would make sense to keep a public list of
participants/endorsers for transparency and also as an introduction.
WDYT?
Indeed; it could be a page of the new web site, no?
Andreas
10:58 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Hi Ludo,
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:58:32PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
Mark Wielaard <mark(a)klomp.org> skribis:
> Originally for bootstrapping reasons that was just for GNU maintainers
> as that term was defined in old GNU. I think if we want a "people" page
> on the new website we could add people there if they want, but I think
> it doesn't have to be very formal as long as it is clear that
> participation in the GNU Assembly is under the assumption that all
> participants endorse the goals of the GNU Social Contract.
Still, I think it would make sense to keep a public list of
participants/endorsers for transparency and also as an introduction.
WDYT?
Maybe, but it is an extra process. I am not against a people page or
something, but someone needs to update it (and what is the
removal/expiry process? Or don't we need one?)
I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which directs
people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to this
mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this mailinglist?
social-contract(a)gnu.tools was a quick and dirty alias setup for the
social contract bootstrapping process. If we are going to use it for
real then we should make it a proper mailinglist. The simply alias may
bounce as we just noticed.
Cheers,
Mark
4:47 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Hi Mark,
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:58:32PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Mark Wielaard <mark(a)klomp.org> skribis:
> > Originally for bootstrapping reasons that was just for GNU
> > maintainers
> > as that term was defined in old GNU. I think if we want a
> > "people" page
> > on the new website we could add people there if they want,
> > but I think
> > it doesn't have to be very formal as long as it is clear that
> > participation in the GNU Assembly is under the assumption
> > that all
> > participants endorse the goals of the GNU Social Contract.
>
> Still, I think it would make sense to keep a public list of
> participants/endorsers for transparency and also as an
> introduction.
> WDYT?
Maybe, but it is an extra process. I am not against a people
page or
something, but someone needs to update it (and what is the
removal/expiry process? Or don't we need one?)
We have a list of software packages whose maintainers or
“maintaining contributors” participate in the assembly. Perhaps
people could be added there e.g. by adding a 64px square or
circular profile picture which either links to a separate page or
which reveals more information on click (via the <details> tag).
Do we *need* an expiry/removal process or can we remove people on
a case by case basis? Adding people would be done when they
publicly endorse the social contract.
I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which
directs
people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to
this
mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this
mailinglist?
I think the intent was to make endorsement of the social contract
explicit before letting people join the mailing list.
--
Ricardo
3:08 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Howdy,
Ricardo Wurmus <rekado(a)elephly.net> skribis:
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:58:32PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
[...]
> Maybe, but it is an extra process. I am not against a people page
or
> something, but someone needs to update it (and what is the
> removal/expiry process? Or don't we need one?)
We have a list of software packages whose maintainers or “maintaining
contributors” participate in the assembly. Perhaps people could be
added there e.g. by adding a 64px square or circular profile picture
which either links to a separate page or which reveals more
information on click (via the <details> tag).
That would be sweet. Would you be able to do that?
Alternatively, I can write a .md file based on
<https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract-endorsement> that simply
lists people and their affiliations.
Do we *need* an expiry/removal process or can we remove people on a
case by case basis? Adding people would be done when they publicly
endorse the social contract.
The code of conduct already specifies circumstances that could lead to
the exclusion of a member. Perhaps eventually we’ll need additional
provisions, but I think we can ignore it for now.
> I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which
directs
> people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to this
> mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this mailinglist?
I think the intent was to make endorsement of the social contract
explicit before letting people join the mailing list.
Exactly.
Thanks,
Ludo’.
6:44 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Ludovic Courtès <ludo(a)gnu.org> writes:
Howdy,
Ricardo Wurmus <rekado(a)elephly.net> skribis:
>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:58:32PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès
>> wrote:
[...]
>> Maybe, but it is an extra process. I am not against a people
>> page or
>> something, but someone needs to update it (and what is the
>> removal/expiry process? Or don't we need one?)
>
> We have a list of software packages whose maintainers or
> “maintaining
> contributors” participate in the assembly. Perhaps people
> could be
> added there e.g. by adding a 64px square or circular profile
> picture
> which either links to a separate page or which reveals more
> information on click (via the <details> tag).
That would be sweet. Would you be able to do that?
Alternatively, I can write a .md file based on
<https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract-endorsement> that
simply
lists people and their affiliations.
Yesterday night I added a new software.sxml page that associates
people with projects. It checks that people can only be assigned
to known projects, and affiliations are recorded per person
instead of per project, which I hope simplifies maintenance. I
stopped short of adding profile pictures because I realized most
of us don’t have them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
--
Ricardo
2:40 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Am Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 08:44:50AM +0200 schrieb Ricardo Wurmus:
Yesterday night I added a new software.sxml page that associates
people with
projects. It checks that people can only be assigned to known projects, and
affiliations are recorded per person instead of per project, which I hope
simplifies maintenance. I stopped short of adding profile pictures because
I realized most of us don’t have them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ah, the amazing things you can do with a programming language! I just
modified my "profile entry" in two lines. Thanks also for the work on
the visual aspect, everything looks really nice.
Andreas
9:14 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Mark Wielaard <mjw(a)gnu.org> skribis:
I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which directs
people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to this
mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this mailinglist?
Done! Let me know if anything’s amiss.
Ludo’.
10:46 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 11:14:38PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
Mark Wielaard <mjw(a)gnu.org> skribis:
> I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which directs
> people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to this
> mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this mailinglist?
Done! Let me know if anything’s amiss.
Looks good. Thanks,
Could I suggest: step 3. When your subscription is accepted, introduce
yourself on the list and someone from the
[webteam](https://web.gnu.tools/en/documents/roles/) will add you to
the [Software/People page](en/software/).
That also makes the last sentence on the page more clear.
Cheers,
Mark
4:02 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021, Mark Wielaard wrote:
Could I suggest: step 3. When your subscription is accepted, introduce
yourself on the list and someone from the
[webteam](https://web.gnu.tools/en/documents/roles/) will add you to
the [Software/People page](en/software/).
I think it is confusing who should appear on the Software page. It
currently says "Maintainers of the following projects," but there are
people like me who are on the mailing list, but aren't maintainers for
whom this third step doesn't make sense (except for the introduction bit,
that seems great).
It seems promising to open up discussion of GNU to more project
participants than just the maintainers, but I can understand if that isn't
really what you were hoping for either. Having the website list be a
subset of the mailing list membership definitely makes sense to me.
I subscribed to the mailing list because I think GNU working together can
bring unique benefits to the world of software, and wanted to help this
happen by bringing energy to the effort. However, I'm also subscribed to
the mailing list so that I can receive the discussions in my mail rather
than having to poll the archives. Between the website and the mailing list
I think we'll need to figure out how to support people with different
levels of engagement.
Thanks for your work on this project so far!
Best,
Jack
11:02 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Hello,
Am Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 12:02:06AM -0400 schrieb Jack Hill:
I think it is confusing who should appear on the Software page. It
currently
says "Maintainers of the following projects," but there are people like me
who are on the mailing list, but aren't maintainers for whom this third step
doesn't make sense (except for the introduction bit, that seems great).
It seems promising to open up discussion of GNU to more project participants
than just the maintainers, but I can understand if that isn't really what
you were hoping for either.
on the contrary, that was exactly what we were hoping for! We just needed
to bootstrap the process, and starting with the existing maintainers seemed
like an easy and relatively logical choice. Notice that since we question
the legitimacy of a "Chief GNUisance" appointing maintainers, even the
notion of who is a maintainer needs to be bootstrapped from the status quo.
Ideally, this would also be a somehow collective decision (by a governing
council of the GNU Assembly, by the full GNU Assembly, or by the different
projects themselves; how exactly becomes a question of governance).
If you look at the last paragraph of the GNU Social Contract, it speaks
of "contributions" and "contributing to its efforts on any of the many
tasks that require work". The intention is clearly to include not only
maintainers or even programmers, but everyone who can advance our work.
The current maintainers were the easiest subset to identify, and adding
other people poses the question of governance; and in particular, how to
avoid being overrun by trolls who only claim to be participating in GNU
without actually contributing. So we need to be inclusive, but at the same
time be careful in whom we include.
Andreas
3:31 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Hi,
Jack Hill <jackhill(a)jackhill.us> skribis:
I think it is confusing who should appear on the Software page. It
currently says "Maintainers of the following projects," but there are
people like me who are on the mailing list, but aren't maintainers for
whom this third step doesn't make sense (except for the introduction
bit, that seems great).
It seems promising to open up discussion of GNU to more project
participants than just the maintainers, but I can understand if that
isn't really what you were hoping for either. Having the website list
be a subset of the mailing list membership definitely makes sense to
me.
I subscribed to the mailing list because I think GNU working together
can bring unique benefits to the world of software, and wanted to help
this happen by bringing energy to the effort. However, I'm also
subscribed to the mailing list so that I can receive the discussions
in my mail rather than having to poll the archives. Between the
website and the mailing list I think we'll need to figure out how to
support people with different levels of engagement.
All this makes a lot of sense to me.
I think we should maintain a list of “participants” (eventually
“members”) and the software page should reflect it. In that list, it
can be useful to distinguish between maintainers and non-maintainers,
mostly as a way to support those different levels of engagement.
Anyhow, a few people subscribed and endorsed the social contract
recently; if your name in this list, please tell whether you’d like to
be listed on the software/people page:
Frank Ch. Eigler
Florian Weimer
Jack Hill
Leo Famulari
(Marius Bakke already answered on IRC)
Ludo’.
8:07 p.m.
New subject: New assembly member
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
Anyhow, a few people subscribed and endorsed the social contract
recently; if your name in this list, please tell whether you’d like to
be listed on the software/people page:
Jack Hill
I'm happy to be listed.
Thanks!
Jack
9:22 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Jack Hill <jackhill(a)jackhill.us> skribis:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>
> Anyhow, a few people subscribed and endorsed the social contract
> recently; if your name in this list, please tell whether you’d like to
> be listed on the software/people page:
>
> Jack Hill
I'm happy to be listed.
Done, thanks!
Ludo’.
10:32 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Hi,
On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 05:31:35PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
Jack Hill <jackhill(a)jackhill.us> skribis:
> It seems promising to open up discussion of GNU to more project
> participants than just the maintainers, but I can understand if that
> isn't really what you were hoping for either. Having the website list
> be a subset of the mailing list membership definitely makes sense to
> me.
>
> I subscribed to the mailing list because I think GNU working together
> can bring unique benefits to the world of software, and wanted to help
> this happen by bringing energy to the effort. However, I'm also
> subscribed to the mailing list so that I can receive the discussions
> in my mail rather than having to poll the archives. Between the
> website and the mailing list I think we'll need to figure out how to
> support people with different levels of engagement.
All this makes a lot of sense to me.
I think we should maintain a list of “participants” (eventually
“members”) and the software page should reflect it. In that list, it
can be useful to distinguish between maintainers and non-maintainers,
mostly as a way to support those different levels of engagement.
Yes. And Jack has a good point that people have different goals and
interests. Not everybody wants to be engaged with the "organizational"
part. Some people just want hack on their favorite GNU package in the
knowledge that the organization is being taken care of. They might not
be interested in becoming "members" even if they support the ideas
behind it. And we should also be clear that to just contribute to a
GNU package is fine as is, you don't need to go "defend" the GNU
Social Contract or be involved in any of the "committees" for that.
Anyhow, a few people subscribed and endorsed the social contract
recently; if your name in this list, please tell whether you’d like to
be listed on the software/people page:
Frank Ch. Eigler
Florian Weimer
Jack Hill
Leo Famulari
(Marius Bakke already answered on IRC)
Note that at the moment anybody using an @redhat.com email address is
being bounced :{ Which includes the first two on your list, plus David
and Jason. I am trying to figure out why. But it is somewhat unclear
apparently the lists.gnu.org IP address has a "Poor Reputation", but
isn't on any RBL, and our dkim setup also seems to check out. So I
have no idea how to resolve this. For now we might have to reach out
to @redhat.com posters in some other way.
Cheers,
Mark
10:17 a.m.
New subject: New assembly member
Mark Wielaard <mjw(a)gnu.org> skribis:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 11:14:38PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Mark Wielaard <mjw(a)gnu.org> skribis:
>
> > I see you created https://web.gnu.tools/en/contribute/ which directs
> > people to email social-contract(a)gnu.tools and then subscribe to this
> > mailinglist. Can we just change that into joining this mailinglist?
>
> Done! Let me know if anything’s amiss.
Looks good. Thanks,
Could I suggest: step 3. When your subscription is accepted, introduce
yourself on the list and someone from the
[webteam](https://web.gnu.tools/en/documents/roles/) will add you to
the [Software/People page](en/software/).
Good idea. I’ve added something along these lines, avoiding “webteam”
because I’d really like everyone to feel empowered to propose changes to
the web site—the fine line between the “tyranny of structurelessness”
and extra hierarchy/bureaucracy.
https://wiki.gnu.tools/git/gnu-tools-website/commit/?id=449f0f5629fa051b9...
Thanks,
Ludo’.
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15 comments
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Ricardo Wurmus